19 Apr 2004

By Vijay K Kumar with V V S Bhaskar, Superintendents of Central Excise, Hyderabad

AGE cannot wither nor custom stale her infinite beauty _ at seventy! The first woman to join the drafting section of the Law Ministry of the Government of India ( for that matter the first woman draftsperson anywhere in the world ), the first woman Secretary General of the Rajya Sabha, the first woman Chief Election Commissioner of India , the first woman Governor of Karnataka, one of the first two women Members of CEGAT , this woman of many a first is a first class human being. She does not give herself much importance, does not consider herself important, and never did consider it good to sit on files _ either notifications in the Law Ministry or Bills from the legislature. She believes that the Governor has no business to delay the bills passed by the Assembly, the true representatives of the people. Has a tremendous respect for democracy, legislature and people's representatives. She does not give importance to personal security and as a Governor was known for her accessibility. In 2002 her name did the rounds as a prospective candidate for the post of President of India. A lady who had everything, who has no regrets, who carries no ill will against anyone, it was sheer pleasure to talk to Rama Devi.

Rama Devi, who is an author of repute with her two famous books jointly with a colleague, 'How India Votes' and 'Rajya Sabha at work' and a few Telugu novels, writes a weekly column for a Telugu daily. She agreed to meet me for a brief chat in her Hyderabad residence for www.taxindiaonline.com . I was interested mainly because she was a founder member of the CEGAT, but the brief chat lasted for a marathon three and a half hours during which she neither got up from her seat nor had a glass of water and I, along with my friend and colleague Bhaskar, was taken for a roller coaster ride through the corridors of Indian Administration at the highest level . This lady, who was present at creation, as former US Secretary of State Dean Rusk would say, showed us a few snippets of that intriguing world. It is really difficult to convert to text most of what she talked to us like the mighty Ganga flowing from the towering mountains.

Here are excerpts from what little we could :

Q. Madam, from the High Court Bar to the Law Ministry, through CEGAT to the Law Commission, Legislative Secretary in the Ministry of Law, Secretary General Rajya Sabha, to Governor of two lovely states - a rich and varied series of experiences? Is there any job which you wish you should have done? Of all the different responsibilities that you so ably shouldered, which one was the most challenging and enjoyable, why? Was there anything common among all these jobs other than Rama Devi?

Answer : There is no job which I wish I should have done. In fact I never expected or hoped for a particular job. They just came along. With my background it was a very long journey for me. In my days there was not even a degree college in my native place. I was lucky to come to Hyderabad to pursue my higher education. After graduation I got married and still pursued my studies _ MA, LLB, LLM, thanks to my husband. The rest simply followed.

All the jobs were challenging in different ways. When I joined the Law Ministry as a draftsman of Deputy Secretary level to draft laws, I found that the job was really challenging. In law-drafting every comma is important. Very early in life I learnt that one has to be meticulous and hard working and then no challenge is difficult to face.

Q. It is said that a woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be considered half as good. It is also said that fortunately it is easy. Did you ever find that being a lady was a disadvantage or did you ever find it to be advantageous?

Answer : It is true that a woman is not easily accepted especially into domains which are predominantly male-dominated. But once you prove your worth and are noticed as capable and hard-working, being a woman is not a handicap. But, yes you have to pass the initial test.

When I joined the Law Ministry's drafting section I was the first woman to do so. And I was the first woman not only in India but almost the entire world. In those times men were not prepared to believe that women can actually draft laws. In fact during my interview it was suggested to me that I should join another less difficult wing. But I asked, 'What's wrong with the drafting job?' They said it would be difficult for a lady and one has to do a lot of hard work and be prepared for long hours of work. I said, 'I am ready' I never claimed any special status or concession as a lady and I am lucky that I was treated rather well. But there was a test in the very beginning of my career. An officer from another department came to me with a file for getting a notification to be vetted by the Law Ministry. He said that it was not urgent and I could take a month's time to return the file. I just looked at the file, made a few corrections in the notification and gave it back to him. He was stunned. He said, 'Madam, it is not that urgent and I can wait for a month.' 'Why wait for a month ?', I asked, 'When it can be completed in five minutes'. Soon word spread that Rama Devi is prompt, efficient and hard working.

When I joined Law Commission as Member Secretary, Justice Desai was the Chairman. He was known for his anti-woman feelings that he would not employ a woman in his office. When I went to his chamber for reporting, he asked me 'who appointed you here'. I said _ the Government. 'How can they appoint you without consulting me?' He flared up. 'That', I said, 'you should ask the Government and may I sit down, sir?' 'Oh you have been standing, please sit down' he said. Then I asked him, 'Sir, I heard that you are anti-women, why?' He explained that he was not anti-woman, but felt there were certain constraints working with women like his language was not exactly polite and at the slightest opportunity, women burst out crying. I told him that I am never going to cry before him and if he turns out to be so bad that I have to cry, I would go to the bathroom and cry. I told him that there are going to be five more women in the section and he had to adjust. His response was cool and I proceeded with my work. Subsequently, he realised what I was and I never had any problem with him. In fact some people, including the then Prime Minister Rajeev Gandhi, were asking me 'How could you tame Justice Desai?'

Q. You were a founder Member of the Tribunal (CEGAT). What is your opinion about tribunalisation of justice? Do you feel that creating more tribunals creates more litigation or are they an effective remedy and do they really ease the congestion in the High Courts?

Answer : Tribunals were started to reduce the congestion in the Courts, but now I understand that even the Tribunals are congested. There are frequent adjournments in the Tribunal and the cases are piling up. Of course, my association with the Tribunal was more than twenty years ago. Even within one year, we found that cases were repetitive and different benches were giving different interpretations. Tribunalisation is alright but the Tribunal should have the powers of a High Court and automatically contempt powers would follow. Then there would be no need for the proposed National Tax Tribunal also. Once the Tribunal acquires respect and authority not many would invoke Article 226 to go to High Courts and High Courts also may not interfere once they know that the Tribunal is doing good work. So what is required is real empowerment of the Tribunal. They should have all the powers of the High Court, including contempt. Then naturally their orders will be obeyed.

Q. How did you join the CEGAT and what were your experiences there? Why did you leave the Tribunal?

Answer : I came to the Tribunal with a basic idea to know how the laws that we drafted were working. It was mostly out of curiosity to know about the working of the laws. I did not have a long stint in the Tribunal. But I had a couple of interesting experiences in the Tribunal. When I was in the Ministry Mr A K Sen was my Minister. He was on and off joining the ministry and leaving it. When I joined CEGAT, he was out of the ministry and I had the strange experience of Mr Sen appearing before me in the CEGAT. Mr Sen was known for his excellent court manners, calling the bench, YOUR HONOUR, bowing before us and all that. And here the case was very weak. And perhaps Mr Sen also knew that. In Customs and Central Excise matters the litigants have a lot of money and they can pay high fees to the consultants. So they must have hired Mr Sen even though their case was weak. But I had to take a judicial decision and the fact that Mr Sen was my minister was not a consideration. And naturally Mr Sen lost his case. Later I again joined the Ministry and Mr Sen again became my minister and he told me, 'Rama Devi, I liked your objectivity'. The great man never carried any rancour against me for my order against him.

I once had the eminent lawyer, Mr Soli Sorabjee, appearing before me. Perhaps these great lawyers think that the people sitting in Tribunals are all technical people and they don't know much of law. I asked Mr Sorabjee a question. I don't remember what exactly the question was, but Mr Sorabjee was stuck. He said, 'Madam, I will answer that question tomorrow, I had not come prepared on those lines.' Later he was making enquiries about me from several lawyers and judges and he remarked that it was refreshing to find such Members in the Bench. Of course, he also lost. We are very good friends now. They are great people.

After about a year in Tribunal I found that the cases were repetitive and often we were referring to our own old cases. And there was pressure from my Ministry to come back. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was planning a lot of legislation and there were not many draftspersons around. So they wanted me back and I willingly joined back in my old favourite drafting job.

Q. While working in the Tribunal did you find it difficult to handle excise and customs laws. Did you find them too technical?

Answer : No, after all I had experience in drafting laws, including customs and excise. I find they are more precise and to the point. I remember a case in Bombay. The dispute was on 'fruit trees'. 'Fruit trees' means fruit bearing trees but there was a comma between fruit and trees and this created the dispute. So it is very important to draft the laws properly.

Q. How does one learn to draft laws?

Answer : It has to be learnt mostly on the job by sheer hard work and perseverance. Of course, some training can help. It is something like a Guru-Shishya tradition.

Q. Who was your guru?

Answer : I learnt the art from Mr.S K Maitra. He is no more and Mr RVS Peri Sastry. They are my gurus.

Q. Did your CEGAT experience help you understand Customs and excise legislation?

Answer : Of course, it gave me an idea on how disputes generate. Later when I became Secretary, Legislation I had to deal with quite a lot of excise and customs legislation especially during budget. And Customs and Excise matters are clouded in so much of secrecy. First the Customs man would come with his notifications and after he goes the Central Excise man would come with his notifications and they would not know what the other person was doing. In fact this secrecy would land us in trouble sometimes. I remember once sitting in Parliament as Legislature secretary and I found that the Finance Minister's speech contained a policy which we had decided to postpone for next year. I immediately sent a slip to the Finance Secretary and got it deleted from the Finance Minister's speech. I believe budget-making should be more open. At least in Income Tax there is no need for so much secrecy.

As Legislature Secretary I had an interesting experience. The Law Minster called me up and said, Rama Devi, Could you please go and explain what this Provisional Collection of Taxes Act is all about to the Finance Minister. I went to the Finance Minister and explained to him in three minutes what the provisions meant and how an increase or imposition in customs and excise would have immediate effect. The FM was very pleased. And I am not a finance expert.

Q. Then how would you understand those laws and their technicalities?

Answer : It is rather simple. If I am drafting a law for the Reserve Bank of India I would ask for assistance from the RBI. In Central Excise and Customs matters I always found that it was wise to ask a Superintendent. If you really want to get proper information, you should always ask a Superintendent. When senior officers of the department would come to me for drafting a particular law, I would ask them to state the policy and then I would ask for a Superintendent in the department. I always found that the Superintendents had a better idea of the ground realities and possible problems and they also knew history. So I would take the help of this boy, no by the time he becomes a Superintendent, he is quite an old man with a lot of experience. So I would not go by hierarchy, I would go to any person to get my information and in Central Excise and Customs I found the Superintendents to be the best source.

I used to sit in Parliament and listen to speeches of opposition leaders and note down their objections. I used to have tremendous respect for their opinions. After all they are the representatives of people and know what the people want. So if there was anything wrong with the laws we drafted and they were pointed out, I would go to the Minister and get it rectified. I was always ready to listen to criticism from any quarter. When you listen to people you understand that they may be wrong but it is possible that many people may think like them and we should have an answer for that kind of thinking.

See now there is a notification issued under a particular section. You must have seen that section a hundred times but you must see it again before the notification is approved to ensure that correct section is quoted. I had to face occasions when the Ministries would deliberately make a notification vague so that they can understand public opinion and judicial feelings.

When we were drafting the Bhopal Gas Tragedy ordinance, I had a doubt whether children yet to be born, i.e. children who are in the wombs of their mothers were eligible for relief. Under the Hindu Family Law a child in the womb was also a person but I was not sure about the Muslim Law. So I had a fear that there would be discrimination in compensation between Hindus and Muslims. When I expressed this fear to my Minister, he said, 'If there is a doubt, why not include it clearly in the law?' So we included the clause that children in their mothers' womb would also be eligible for compensation.

We have the Supreme Court which is a guiding factor. As Justice Desai used to say 'Supreme Court is right not necessarily because it is right but because it is the final authority' and once that final authority decides something we are expected to follow that.

Q. Mani Shankar Iyer once wrote that you wanted to include a definite time before which the Panchayat elections are to be held, in the law, but he shot you down saying that after the first elections it would be meaningless in the statute. Later he regrets not accepting your suggestion and says, 'Look where she is now and where I am' And coming from Iyer it was a great compliment. What are your comments?

Answer : It was only by my years of experience as draftsperson in the Law Ministry. I suggested that the Act should contain a clause prescribing a definite date for its implementation. Let it be six months, one year or two years, but there should be a date. As for Iyer's compliments, as I told you people were very kind to me and I was also very nice to them. I never felt bad or insulted when my views were not accepted or overruled. I disagreed without being disagreeable. There were several occasions when the minister would accept my views over that of my senior Mr Peri Sastry. Mr Sastry never felt bad. On the other hand he used to feel happy and compliment me. Similarly when my juniors and subordinates had a better idea, I would gladly accept even if it was against my view.

In fact I was a sort of a pioneer in the retrospective legislation and clarificatory legislation. After Justice Bhagavati retired, he went on a sort of attack against defective legislation. In his chamber opinion, he was advising that several notifications were faulty. Coming from one who had occupied the highest seat of judiciary in the country, we could not ignore them. So we started giving clarifications and making them effective retrospectively. In fact one budget was known as 'Removal of doubts' budget. For almost every clause we gave an explanation 'for removal of doubts, it is clarified' In Law making one should not stand on prestige, more so on false prestige.

Q. Madam, I am meeting you during the height of election time and incidentally a highly vocal party's office is next to your house. At this juncture I cannot forget that I am talking to a former Chief Election Commissioner. Over the years the Election Commission has become very assertive and high profile. May be for you it was just another job. Do you think the CEC should be so visible?

Answer : Elections were being held here for many years. It was the practice to appoint senior officers of the Law ministry as Election Commissioners. I was the last one from the Law ministry. My predecessor, Mr RVS Peri Sastry, was seriously ill and everyone knew that eventually I would be appointed as the Chief Election Commissioner. I was indeed appointed. I had a short stint as the Chief Election Commissioner. May be I was too independent for the liking of the then concerned minister who must have felt that there was no need for the Law Ministry officers to be appointed as CEC; after all it was an administrative job. Anyhow whatsoever may be the reason I was replaced. In fact once Justice Krishna Iyer expressed the view that my removal was not legal as I had not resigned, I was not of unsound mind nor was I impeached. I was even advised to take the issue to the court. But I did not want to work in a particular job when the government did not want me and certainly I did not want to drag the government to court on technicalities.

But during the short stint in Election Commission, when I addressed the Electoral Officers, I stressed on the use of Electronic Voting Machines; for starting mobile polling booths especially for the weaker sections to avoid intimidation and for issue of multi purpose identity cards at Government cost with a caution that at first instance it may not be compulsory for voting. Slowly we can make people get used to the idea. This would also help in weeding out illegal intruders from the voters' list.

During that time there was the Bodo problem. They came to me and said, 'Didi, you come and see what's happening'. I went; they called me didi and I was sure nothing is going to happen to me. And nothing did. There is certainly no need for so much visibility for the Election Commission, but I can say that the Commission's work should be visible and not the individuals.

Q. You were the Governor in two states, though a Constitutional head, nevertheless a highly politicalised post. As a civil servant did you face any problem with the politicians?

Answer: By and large I had no problems with politicians. I think once they know that you are not going to adopt a partisan attitude and you are fair, they leave you alone. When I was appointed as Governor, Prime Minister Gujral gave me a choice. I could go either to Goa or Himachal Pradesh. I said at my age I should be going to the Himalayas, so let me go to Himachal Pradesh. The PM said that my choice was good as Himachal Pradesh was a state with no problems. But I had to take some very unprecedented decisions. After the elections both the parties were more or less evenly placed and I had to take the decision of inviting the leader of the single largest party to form the Government. I took the decision of inviting the leader of the largest party without taking into consideration post-poll alliances who had one more member's strength more than the combined strength of the opposition even after post poll alliance. I told President Narayanan that I would be taking a decision the next day. He told me 'do whatever you want but send me a detailed report on what you do. As Chairman of the Rajya Sabha I used to take your advice and now you be your own counsel.'

And strangely in Himachal Pradesh I had a funny situation where both the ruling CM and a senior opposition leader asked me to impose President's rule till the time elections are held in the four postponed Assembly Constituencies. That's what Gujral said about the state being a very decent one. In the height of this controversy, I had over three hundred protesting students descending on the Raj Bhavan. I went for a walk and addressed the students. I told them their job was to study and these politicians are not going to help them in any way. I asked them to go back to their colleges instead of creating disturbances in the Raj Bhavan. I offered them tea. They said they had come to see the Tamasha. As a Governor being the chancellor of the Universities in the state I had a good rapport with the students and I used to address them frequently.

Q. Tell us something about your family.

Answer : I belong to a large family. We were seven sisters and my father never differentiated between the daughters and sons. In fact when my brother did not study well, my father used to tell him, 'I wish you were also a girl like them.' Even in those days I was allowed to go to college. My husband was an Engineer with Rural Electrification. He was sick and on bed for nearly 25 years. I never allowed my family anywhere near my official work. I must say they also never wanted any official patronage. Because my husband was sick, not many people got to see him and people used to think I am a divorcee or a widow. Once I had the funny experience of Attorney General G. Rama Swamy introducing a lawyer to me, 'Here's Rekha, a bright young lawyer.' Only he did not know that Rekha was my daughter! I had VIPs like the British and Chinese premier in the Raj Bhavan but my children would never join the banquet.

Q. Has your career affected your personal life? Did you ever feel that it would be better any day to be a housewife than go through the ordeal of being a career woman?

Answer : It is an emphatic ''no''. I had ensured that my work never suffered because of my family and similarly my family never suffered because of my work. Sometimes when midnight ordinances had to be issued I used to come home at 1 AM and my husband would ask me what I was doing till then. I would say 'look for it in tomorrow's newspapers'. My children would say that though our mother does not spend too much time with us but the little time she spends with us is valuable. Maybe quality time, not quantity time.

Q. After all these years of busy days how does it feel to be retired and spending time with yourself? What exactly do you do now?

Answer : I dabble in writing. I am doing a weekly column for a Telugu Daily Andhra Bhoomi. When you rang me up, I was finishing my latest novel. I had just finished tagging the papers. This is the last of a series of novels which can be read one after the other or independently. The novels deal with different stages of life. The first one is called Raji (compromise).The second one is Maluppulu (Turns) and the third one Majli (Another stage). And the last one which I have just completed is Anantham (eternity). All these books, including fiction, are experiences from my life.

Q. Do you claim to be an ordinary housewife? Can you tell me the price of a Kg of onions? Do you know how to make a cup of coffee?

Answer: Of course, I am. I can cook. Even as Governor of Karnataka I used to cook some special Telugu dishes for my husband because of his delicate health. I make Sooji Halwa which my children like. I don't shop for vegetables now because my defect is that I have a weakness to purchase in bulk and not in small quantities. Ours was a big family and we wanted everything in huge quantities. Once I went to a shop in Hyderabad to buy vegetables and fruits. The bill came to around Six hundred Rupees and I had not carried that much money.

Q. Madam, I should venture to say before parting that you are very charming and it has been indeed great talking to you.

Answer: Smiles.

Q. What is your message for netizens of taxindiaonline.com?

Answer: Live, don't just exist.

(The views expressed are strictly personal)